Rulers, Regimes, Managed, Governed: Public Policy Demands Democratic Equality and Mind Arson

Those descriptions are just a few I pulled from the 2015 book of the Roadmap co-creator  called Smart Citizens, Smarter State. Its view of the role of governments, at all levels, is that they are in charge of planning and managing social systems, like cities, people, and the economy. Citizens have a right to participate and be consulted, but as individuals they are bound nonetheless. Honestly, this vision made me wonder precisely what classes the author took at Harvard undergrad and then Yale Law, but somewhere she learned to have a very lofty view of institutions and their function for the 21st Century. (my bolding).

“differences in economic growth can be traced to one thing…It is not culture or the plague, but institutions: institutions that are inclusive and promote the use of citizens’ talent, ingenuity, ambition and ability. When rulers become extractive, seeking to oppress their people to the end of achieving economic gain, they guarantee decline. But when regimes advance human capacity, they progress.”

I am a little old to have to be exclaiming “you’re not the boss of me” as if we are on a playground arguing over toys, but no, these stakes are so much higher as we saw in the Roadmap from the last post. Where does mind arson come in though? A couple of places actually. Noveck introduces us to a new word–epistocracy. That’s the idea that people who know more will be in charge. She points out that “If some have significantly better epistemic capabilities–relevant knowledge and skills–than others, this creates a tension with democratic equality.” They might also read that Roadmap, authored books, cited documents, and then piece together what is actually being contemplated in an unapproved way. That will not do in a vision where public policy wants to steer society and “Governments aspire to be the brain of their societies” as the report from an annual Oxford conference on policymaking sponsored by the same McKinsey Consulting that helped fund that Roadmap.

Another lost invite in other words, but the authors of the Roadmap touted that conference last week after the previous post and we can take a look too. 

Before we discuss that conference that should have a subtitle “there’s nothing governments cannot do once they marry public policy and the behavioral sciences,” I pulled a quote from George Orwell that one of my cybernetics books. It was used to explain that no governmental authority with aspirations of complete power over people and social systems can afford not to manipulate the news and permissible everyday knowledge. Here’s Orwell: “freedom of the intellect means the freedom to report what one has seen, heard, and felt and not be obliged to fabricate imaginary facts and feelings.” So what a wanna-be steering government in the 21st century needs is to control those perceived facts and feelings via the type of education available, without that actual intent being recognized.

My analysis is that this is what School Choice does when its documentable history is followed through and its declared goals are actually tracked. My insistence that there is in fact a Left/Right Pincer action going on has been based on what is actually being said in articles and books too few read. We can thankfully get beyond that now as Ms Noveck tweeted on the blog tied to her book to a September 9 article called “A Revolutionary Toolbox” that a Costa Rican think tank had launched that thanked her for her help as well as a number of listed officials identified as being with the Atlas Network. If, like me, you search out those individual names you will find several are also tied to executive positions at the World Bank. Ding. Ding. Another cited influence is an MIT poli sci prof, Nazli Choucri, who is the Director of the Global System for Sustainable Development.

If you have time, do look up GSSD as well as it provides yet more evidence that steering and Sustainable Development need Mind Arson. The site reads like a blueprint for the specified categories of knowledge that everyone must know and no more. Good way to keep anyone from grasping they are now being fed politically useful facts and guiding fictions with no means of knowing what is imaginary or not. So not only do “governments aspire to be the brains of their societies,” which gets so much easier if you circumscribe available information into a “knowledge system,” but another speaker at that conference, Eldar Shafir, a Princeton prof who also has ties to Harvard, seemed to have an aim that would go a long way toward creating any needed ‘imaginary feelings’ without that aim being accurately perceived.

“Leaders in the 21st century need to understand human psychology rather than make false assumptions about it. [won’t state prescribed social emotional learning standards come in ever so handy then?] Humans are driven by a richer set of motivations than economists used to assume…Better data and analytics can combine with greater empathy and better psychology to shape more powerful and effective public policy.” A different conference attendee, Elizabeth Linos,  gave even more incentive for governments at every level to actually want Mind Arson to fit with their expressed desire to plan, manage, and steer while calling such intentions–governing.

“The past few years have seen an explosion of interest in behavioural science by policymakers at local, national and international levels. The first wave of interest asked: how can we use behavioural science to nudge our citizens to follow the rules?…The second wave considered the relationship between a people and their government.” All of these visions of public policy envision a regulation of the ‘market’ economy at all levels in the name of “many of the most central moral concerns we face as a society: concerns about distribution, welfare, opportunity, and the good life. It is therefore also a central concern for us as citizens in a democratic polity.” That was Noveck and we saw precisely the same concerns in those Habitat III documents and the conferences HUD has quietly hosted. In the comments to the previous post are links to what a Right to the City will factually mean.

When the Roadmap from the last post stated that the purpose of government is now to “improve people’s lives” it means precisely the kind of public policy steering we are covering in this post. A steered citizen cannot be a genuinely well-informed, rational person because it negates the ability to construct the necessary internalized keel to control how ‘facts’ are perceived, which emotions are utilized, and what values motivate actions. After the last post I listened to this interview with Angela Glover Blackwell since I had heard her speak last January so I knew she was touting the same people as I read in the recent book The Way Back tied to the Atlas Network.

The question was “what role can public policy play in advancing social inclusion?” Her answer was that it “is essential for a fully inclusive society. The society won’t just be inclusive on its own. And public policy has always been the thing that translates the values of the nation into what actually happens in that nation.” So education controls prevailing values and you cannot have a “fully inclusive society” if some people know more or have better skills than others. Remember Ms Noveck called that an epistocracy? So this public policy-centric vision assumes actually that governments at all levels are in fact the bosses of us. To quote Ms Blackwell again “So public policy allows us to be able to spend our resources and make decisions that are fair and work for the broader society as well as work for the individual.”

Honestly when I first created this blog’s metaphor of an invisible serfs collar, I only knew a part of the story. I am not sure I had ever even heard the term cybernetics before. Yikes! In order for all these plans for a fully inclusive, governments at all levels are in charge, steerable economy and society vision to work, governments have to control prevailing consciousness. To avoid opposition, that control cannot be widely perceived in time. Makes the timing of turning over the Internet to an international authority as of October 1 rather timely and propitious, doesn’t it? Unappreciated radically different conception of K-12 education and the loss of control over the Internet certainly seems like an excellent means to have “complete command over the interpretation of political concepts, which is necessary for complete steering of men from the outside” said the cyberneticians I found as I contemplated that Roadmap.

If anyone is still not convinced on the ties among what has been openly proclaimed once we know where to look and an attendant need for Mind Arson, let me close with the opening epigraph from “The Revolutionary Toolbox” link. Citing Ithiel de Sola Pool:

“People who think about social change in traditional political terms cannot begin to imagine the changes that lie ahead. Conventional reformers cast their programs in terms of national policies, or in terms of laws and central planning. But in the end, what will shape the future is a creative potential that inheres in the new technologies of electronic communication and machine intelligence.”

That vision is what governments at all levels want and they blithely use the term public policy to obscure the manipulative intentions they talk about elsewhere at conferences we are not invited to and in books and reports we are not really supposed to read. That Roadmap for the Next Administration is not for us and it’s really not for a President Clinton or Trump either. It is for the people either would appoint to a federal agency or the judiciary and the professors of the elite universities that credential them.

This aim to steer is well and frequently expressed. It is Bicameral and Bipartisan, at all levels of government, and think tanks of every purported ideology. The way out is to remember that cybernetics is all about the need to “organize the flow of information and control in a system.”

Radically reconceptualizing the nature of education with a desire for Mind Arson, putting Public Policy as the supposed driver of society, and giving up control of the Internet each goes to that necessity. Ms Noveck never used the term cybernetics or socio-cybernetics, but she did describe the essence. She also wrote about the various means “for organizing distributed information flows in biological as well as sociological systems.”

That sounds so much better that its essence of organizing what people in a society are to know, believe, perceive, and value so that they can be collectively steered. Sociological systems is just a fancy word for workplaces, schools, cities, economies, and all the other groups of humans who are to no longer be free to not submit to a “fully inclusive”, steered society.




32 thoughts on “Rulers, Regimes, Managed, Governed: Public Policy Demands Democratic Equality and Mind Arson

  1. It’s the white-washing of intent that’s frightening. That “all inclusiveness” slogan that’s developed tells us we can no longer have diverse values, feelings and opinions. THEY are right, WE are wrong. And, the speed and pressure at which this has weaseled into American culture is crushing my hope of ever being able to be free of it again. Donald Trump, whatever your opinion of him, is loved for his NO PC blurting. We who fear being totally overtaken by these mind-melders should all be speaking loudly and clearly to those who moralize and “share” their opinions like a sledge hammer as well. Your columns are enlightening. Thanks ~

    • I think the difference is that the clintons have been part of this steering agenda for a very long time and are utterly corrupt.

      Trump, from everything I have heard truly loves this country and its diversity of people and uses school choice generically. He has no idea it has a history tied to cybernetics, systems theorists looking for a Third Way, and getting at the internalized subjectivity of each student to invisibly control the adult they will become. If he continues to get his policy advice from thinkers like FH Buckley and others tied to the Atlas Network he will get to much the same place as the Clintons but using different rhetoric and rationales. If he is unaware this blueprint exists, but his advisers are not, again that is problemmatic because the pincers will close. What are the chances the next HUD head will not follow Julian Castro’s lead except at that point the implementation can simply shift to the local.

      I think he would be appalled to recognize this and so I am once again writing with a Presidential election looming, hoping that what I know and can prove might make a difference. By the way the Elizabeth Linos I quoted turns out to be with the North American Behavioral Insights Team and the Oxford Journal I linked to was the inaugural issue. This is coming and when public policy becomes law or the federal agencies interpret it as law, the Rule of Law as a new normative instrument to control behavior kicks in. None of this is accidental, nor is the elaborate coordination that goes on trying to just make the federal level the issue. It’s still usurpation when it’s local schools doing this in the name of personalized learning or the online curriculum vendor who can participate as a qualified provider eligible for ESA monies because they met unappreciated criteria for what constitutes ‘quality education.’

      • Oh yes. This graphic makes it quite clear that Students and Teachers alike will be “Engaged”. Suffered through back to school night for my 15 year old last Thursday. The talks were primarily about Feelings of students and not Facts. I felt like I had mistakenly walked into an Esalen/EST seminar.

        Teachers don’t even hear how many times they use the word “engage/engaged” in their speech. They are HYPNOtized.

        Engaged= Any Engrenage/Gear graphic
        Engaged= Any Interlocking Puzzle Piece graphic
        Engaged= Any Clasped Hands graphic

        Engaged = CAPTURED. For Excellence, Quality and Equity.

        • Did you notice the lightbulb in each graphic to signify ‘learning’? I wrote in the margin of my copy that learning meant a change in the neural net that would then guide behavior, probably at an unconscious level, going forward.

          Housing, healthcare, all use the term “quality education’ consistently all over the world, even though we know that actually means to be grounded in social emotional standards. Gets back again to what is wrong with the Truth in American Education letter to Congress. All this deception though is foretold in the actual cybernetics books from the early 80s with how the so-called ‘withering of the state’ would be through a devolution to the local and the internalization of the desired Mindset and capabilities. Just finished the book I quoted in this post by a Finnish author–Arvid Aulin. He even writes about the need for so-called Conservatives on board to get to economic democracy. Truly fascinating given what I was put through offline in the last 12 months that traces back to people with ties to the Atlas Network.

          Also look at what creates 2 steps forward or one step back in that Maker Reflection: the Game. How is that not Brainwashing in the classroom?

          No more back to school nights for me, but sea change is the word I am hearing consistently.

          • Don’t you find that it helps though to know why you are hearing what you are hearing and where it is all going?

            This would be a prudent time for any parent or grandparent who has not read Credentialed to Destroy to buy it and read quickly. It is missing the cybernetics component that is the rest of the story, but there is so much information in that book and it is all pertinent to where this is going. It is why the think tanks found its contents so alarming. The cybernetic component simply lays on top and is the reason for the reading, math, and science wars and the need for Tranzi OBE. I am so thoroughly on the right track here that I can track what is in that KQED story to what Charles Fadel and the Center for Curriculum Redesign advocate as the Four Dimensions of a transformed view of education to the editor of the story of the Bellagio conference in 1968. Then I can tie it all to that Roadmap as well as ESSA and WIOA. Somehow I have gotten where I need to be, even if being here sometimes makes me feel sad and a bit alone.

  2. How could you not feel sad and alone at times? And yes, I am glad to know what I do and where it is all going. I may not be able to keep them from lobbing their dreck at me and my kids but I can help us all to dodge the worst of it.

    • How is this for a quote that really puts ‘personalized learning’ and ‘brain-based instruction’ into its true, long-planned role. Author quoted is a Jan Smuts that sounds rather pornographic, doesn’t it?

      “The individual is going to be universalised, the universal is going to be individualized, and thus from both directions the whole is going to be enriched.”

      Usually when I feel sad, I take a break, make some lovely tea, or shift my attention to a new recipe to make for dinner. That reminds me. I promised my newly employed college grad I would make osso buco and twice-baked potatoes from scratch tonight.

      • I found this when I was thinking about that new center at Princeton Shafir is in charge of and how Daniel Kahneman’s work ties to what is called HOTS in ESSA and how the Nobel Committee when they awarded the Nobel Prize in Economics said it was for psychology work, not Economics per se. That would mean that all this hyping about Law and Economics and what the Olin Foundation funded was really about using the law to quietly impose what is known to get into that internalized Black Box of capabilities and what drives a likelihood of using them in taking action on the world.

        I wanted to see if there was a connection between Robert George, Emmett and Jane’s boos at APP and also Kurtz’s as he chairs the Board at the Ethics and Policy Center of the Atlas Network where Kurtz is a fellow. Voila!

        There is also something unusual in that Federalist article, which does come across more than a day late and far more than a dollar short. It’s the hyping of their degrees, which usually takes some searching out. This is designed to have people defer to the insights under the Appeal to Authority fallacy. We are discussing laws and we are lawyers so defer to us. Could have added that Harvard is Ground Zero for Fabian Socialism and how to institute it or that Fordham Law is known for its social justice and urbanism emphasis. I remember thinking this explains a lot when one of my kids drug me there for an interview.

        • This is interesting. Former AEI Law Fellow now at George Mason Law and cannot find anything to disagree about with Jack Balkin. That’s the same Jack Balkin who is the co-editor of the Soros-funded (literally) Constitution in 2020. The Powerline blog had this featured. Buckley is also at George Mason Law–the author of The Way Back that I found to be far more influenced by Marxism than conservatism.

          I think all these people simply want us to blindly accept their offered descriptive labels. The ideas that we get bound by, as these are all law profs of course, have unexpected effects on us because they were deceptively labeled in order to gain acceptance and unopposed adoption.

    • Speaking of pincers, just saw the Ed Week article on Trump’s ed Transition Team. Evers always makes me think of Koret.

      Notice Diane Ravitch so there’s the link to Brookings and then later to the Gordon Commission. Chester Finn shows up as being on some global panel Pearson and Michael Barber created that misleads about PISA.

      At least we know where Evers and Robinson stand from personal experience. I actually heard Evers speak too in person. I kept wondering why someone would spin the Common Core as he was doing. He was on a panel with Jane Robbins I went to.

      I met Gerard Robinson back in 2009 or so when he spoke at a GPPF legislative forum. Same one Katie Hancock of Education Trust was at and had radically changed how she described herself to get legislators to listen to her opinion that Georgia must not alter holding all students to the same performance standards. I remember being fascinated that Robinson was later hired to be Florida’s Ed Commissioner.

      We know Texas was actually ahead of the curve on where Common Core would take the rest of the country, in part because of its key role in the New Standards Project with an NCEE office in Ft Worth. Then we knew they went to College and Career, change the internal capacities of the student in 2006, two years before the Common Core. says that Texas was adopting the recommendations of the Koret Task Force that Evers was a part of.

      Also notice Herbert Walberg’s presence. It omits that he is Chairman of the Board of the Heartland Institute where Joy Pullmann works when she is not acting as an editor of the Federalist. Not only is Walberg noted for his SEL work but he is an ed prof where CASEL relocated to after it left Yale many years ago.

      When I say there is just one template I am not kidding.

      • This is also out and we can add Kevin Chavous as yet another person I have talked to one on one about what I understand about where this is all really going. He spoke at a breakfast I attended. I don’t just think I recognize this pincer action. I have actually talked to all these people and know precisely how much they hate someone who has a handle beyond the rhetoric.

        Vadum works here. Look at the board and its ties to the various components of the Right Pincer. Remember too that the Bradley Foundation owns Encounter Books.

        Marvin Olasky is on that list. I knew the name was familiar, but he is discussed in one of the posts that the Search Engine Overlord insisted must be deleted. He is the co-author of the 1987 book Turning Point: A Christian Worldview Declaration with Herbert Schlossberg who goes on to be a fellow at the same Ethics and Public Policy Center that Stanley Kurtz is at and Robert George chairs the Board. From the back cover. “The purpose of the Worldview Series is to provide a Biblical, Christian perspective on critical areas of modern life and culture, and to encourage men and women to apply this perspective to all disciplines and institutions.”

        Sounds like what Michael Fullan and UNESCO call Transdisciplinary.

  3. Hi Robin. In today’s New York Times is an article entitled: ‘Good Lives Without Good Jobs’. The title is pretty self explanatory, and even mentions “the hidden welfare state”. I guess the powers that be have decided to start letting us in on their hidden agenda. It’s pretty depressing and my husband has gotten to the point where he doesn’t want to discuss the subject anymore. I’m feeling alone too…….

    • Hi Vivian Take a look at this released today.

      If you go to the end you will see the involvement of the GWU Institute of Public Policy. That ties this to Amitai Etzioni, the cybernetic vision of steering people and institutions and making states and localities the vision enforcers, and Etzioni’s book Active Society created when he was at CASBS.

      The new Center at Princeton Shafir is in charge of that is named for Daniel Kahneman and his wife, Anne Treisman, is also toed to CASBS as they were both fellows there.

      Not lonely, but alone in terms of the intensity of the aims I can see and have documented and all the deceit intended to obscure the cybernetic vision. Thank goodness I can accurately grasp things no one intended to actually tell us forthrightly.

  4. Profoundly disturbing. Compared to this, countering the AGW/climate change scam is relatively easy.
    I am well-known locally as a “go to” person for people having difficulties with the local Council, particularly in areas relating to construction and development. I am aware that my speciality (climate-responsive design) has been hijacked, also “sustainability” which used to mean something in the context of building design but is now little more than a dirty word. It seems “rule of law” is now being perverted, from “everything a regulator does must be supported by law” to “we are the law and we rule”. The latter coming from the lowest tier of authority would be laughable were it not for the fact that I have clients up against this on a regular basis. I fully expect the next things they will pervert will be principles of natural justice (eg audi alteram partem etc), and fundamental legislative principles (eg an inferior law cannot contradict a superior law unless specifically provided for in the superior law).
    Mercifully my kids finished their education before it was transformed from “how to think” to “what to think/feel”. I have no grandchildren to worry about yet, but I have clients who ask advice because of their kids, and I sometimes talk to younger people who have an intuition that they are being misled. They are usually right, but the question is, how do we assist these to (1) understand what is going on, and (2) survive the process until they can gain some independence?
    I looked at that Mind/Shift KQED stuff. While it is glutinously enthusiastic, it is also very subtle, in that the subliminals and obnoxious connections were not immediately apparent, to me anyway.
    Can you recommend a starting point, a book, pdf, whatever, that covers the basics of this problem and how to deal with it?
    Although I spent years as a tertiary educator, trainer etc, this is a bit beyond me, but I will be asked to help anyway.

    • My book Credentialed to Destroy: How and Why Education Became a Weapon explains a great deal of this and makes this blog far more penetrable. Te material on the Reading Wars and what genuine phonetic fluency is known to do to the mind is why I can recognize this same intent when it is being enshrined into the law. When I mention cybernetics, that will overlay on why Tranzi OBE–as I explain Transformational Outcomes Based Education in my book–or why values, attitudes, and beliefs get targeted. It’s why the false narrative of the same crew that wrote that Federalist article in their letter to Congress is the wrong track. It’s not a database of values, attitudes, and beliefs as those get targeted for change. That change is what now constitutes Learning or Student Growth. No parent will know that. I like Stanley Kurtz’s work too, but for the life of me I cannot understand why someone with a PhD in social anthropology from Harvard has never explained the function of a conceptual lens in any of his critiques of APUSH unless the false narrative wants to be able to falsely guide perception too. The Right Pincer wants that invisible steerable keel too.

      I go where the evidence goes and did not start this journey with anything other than a recognition that I was being lied to. The Erich Jantsch paper I am quoting from when I talk about the 1968 Bellagio conference is long, but reading it should really clarify what has happened back when it was simply an aspiration. I am not going to give a hot link as that is too easy to take down but I found it after a co-founder of the Club of Rome, Alexander Christakis, referenced it in his 2006 book. I had already concluded that Christakis’ Structured Design Dialogue was what students were being trained to do in Discourse Classrooms and what communication actually meant as a 21st century skill.

      The paper is called “Perspectives of Planning” and was published by the OECD in 1969. It is 494 pages and is the Proceedings of the OECD Working Symposium on Long-Range Forecasting and Planning, Bellagio, Italy, October 27-November 2, 1968. I think that is a superb seminal document on why education had to be changed, why the law had to become a normative instrument to bind everyone to a vision of the future, and why CAGW is needed. It’s the rationale for the planing, but the planning came first.

      • I read the beginning of that paper and was struck by the fact that these elites are all getting together to plan the future of the whole world, but admit that the plans to integrate their ideas and achieve a ‘synergistic effect’ from the few people at the meeting largely ‘evaded’ the attendees and failed. I guess the irony was lost on them.

        • Hard to read that statement that “planning must nevertheless be undertaken simultaneously at different levels and must be integrated across these levels” and not think of how ESSA and WIOA have been structured.

          This is from page 90: ” For, by now, surely the question to ask is no longer ‘Can I?‘ it is ‘Ought I?‘ And this takes us back to what I have called the normative approach which yields, not the ideal future or any utopia, but the willed future.”

          So the willed future is being brought to us by tenured profs, NGO employees who pay no taxes on their incomes, planners with pensions guaranteed by taxpayers, etc. No one who actually bears the risk of pushing horrific ideas.

          Speaking of tenured profs, look at what was discussed in this ISTE keynote.

  5. Hi Robin,
    Checked Amazon for your book. The suppliers don’t seem to show “International Post” any more, but I’m sure some will still handle it. Hope so anyway, otherwise my eclectic interests are going to suffer 🙂
    “Hard to read that statement that “planning must nevertheless be undertaken simultaneously at different levels and must be integrated across these levels””
    Sure is hard to read … The “planning” being discussed is not the same as the planning I do, eg town and regional, but that has been contaminated by the same initiatives.

    • Did you check kindle? The countries that I would have had to hire a separate publisher are usually available that way.

      I really do understand this from a metaphor level to the detail. Planning and any specific question is something I can handle.

      • Yep should have said, I can get kindle. Almost everything I have to read eg legislation, codes, policies, has to be electronic or the house would be too small, but sometimes I’ll look for a book 🙂

  6. If memory serves correctly we have discussed Rob Abel. With INS. He is somehow connected to cybernetics, MIT and Soviet Ed. Am I close? Rather interesting how far the analytics are pursuing the monitoring of that internal change don’t you think? Just how much clearance did ESSA allow them ?

    • IMS Global is tied tightly to all of this and on my radar as Fulton County Schools works closely with them and I know precisely what they are really implementing.

      I knew the internal change was the essential component of cybernetics. That is in the post I wrote about Soviet Nina Talyzina and UNESCO’s interest here.

      When I was following up the implications of this clear cybernetic steering in that Roadmap and thinking through the School Choice template and how it ties to Banathy and his systems work, I discovered a reference to the author of the 1968 Bellagio report for the OECD, Eric Jantsch, having written The Self-Organizing Universe for Ervin Laszlo. I was able to locate that book and read it over the weekend. It makes it horrifically but conclusively clear that an internalized neurobiological steerable keel is the key to all the rest of this steering of other human collectivities like workplaces, cities, schools, ultimately countries.

      IMS Global’s work goes to the construction of the stipulated elements of the desired keel. It also ties to P21’s work, which is also why this week’s announcement that the Qatar Foundation is joining P21 is important.

      ESSA not only gives clearance, but makes this the template for what is effective as What Works acknowledged this week in a release on the evidence-based regulations under ESSA. The elements of what is to be internalized and the assessment for their presence is ‘evidence-based’ education. A charter following this template will not only get renewed and thus further access to taxpayer money, it will come within the ESSA guidelines for which CMOs get to expand into additional states.

      Constructing the internalized keel without that being appreciated is what ESSA is really about. It’s also what all the deceit involving these think tank employees and associates is about. It’s why they keep shifting the conversation to PII databases and talking about Type 1 and Type 2 instruction.

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